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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 21, 2009 7:57pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

Its what I have being saying, a lot of popular free WWW stuff, is being set up by providers, that don't yet have a business model, to repay the venture capital.

An example is Twitter where its lost millions of dollars of borrowed venture capital, and its owners don't know how to bring money in, to pay for its service.

Just another dot-com-boom idea, that is going bust fast, if it does not find a way to make money very soon.

A better example is Google's YouTube, recent news is that they are experimenting with where and how to put paid sponsors' video messages, at the beginning only, or breaking up the video as in like TV advertising. And its videos are uploaded by people, without Google paying out.

Nothing in life is free, Google does have to show a profit. But I think it is dishonest for it to get people hooked on freebies, WITHOUT saying that sooner, rather than later, its going to somehow want payment per item.

Now its got so many books tied up, and readers hooked therefore lots of views per hour 24/7, it accountants will be onto the decision makers pointing out its time to cash in.

So, what arrangement does it have with American Universities regarding book scanning, does Google pay? Does the deal alow Google to charge per view or download?

Or does Google only have the rights to the books because it is scanning the books at no cost to the libraries?

A bit of lateral thinking, if Google got free scanning rights, because it told the universities that Google was the best means of making these books freely available worldwide, what would the universities decide if the Archive offered to help in the project, for example, the Archive can help with distribution, taking the burden of Google's money making business model if Google allows the Archive full/free access to its book scans.

What's left for public spirited Google if it agrees? Its still got its name on every single page of every single book it scanned. (I am assuming it has the same as books scanned by the Archive.)

I am not sure of all the ins and outs, but might not a approach to the USA Department of Justice be appropriate? After all, Google tying up so many books in this way, is very like Microsoft abusing its Windows almost monopoly, to get the Whole Wide World to use its Internet Explorer. (who is to say that MS did not plan to make IE a pay for, once its competitors were out of the way?

No anti-trust suit on Search, against Google is possible now, and because of the Archive, the same goes for Google Books.

But does Google have a right to tie up so much of the worlds knowledge on its Google Books, and make money from books they got to scan for free?

What happens if Europe wants its published books made freely available to the World, can it overrule any agreement Google made with American Universities and libraries?

The only winners now will be the lawyers arguing such matters.

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Poster: garthus Date: Jun 22, 2009 6:52am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

Time Traveller,
Well said. However, a few volunteers building an archive can throw a monkey wrench into their plans. All the google books can be rescanned, or their watermarks removed for that matter. However the real point, regardless of any deals which google may have made with the publishers or the universities, is that the materials are still in the public domain, and as such the content can still be placed into other archives. I am currentl scanning in a book on buddhism from 1897. Google will not allow a download of this work. The original book which I have sells for over $450, if you can find it. It is still under publication today. Does that mean that the publisher today can restrict my putting the book up on the archive (no). Since the original copyright was filed in 1897, the original work is public domain. You can see where this leads. Possibly far more than 90 % of all books which were copyrighted before 1964 are in the public domain, and many before March 30 of 1989. By digitizing as much as possible, as fast as we can, we can put a tremendous crimp in the plans of MS and google, and their ilk.

It is almost laughable that they thought that this would actually work out for them. More short term thinking by our economic geniuses. Nothing good comes out of restricting access to information and as google and company are finding out, such control is elusive if not impossible to hold.


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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 23, 2009 1:24am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

Yes thanks.

But what if some books are only left in the libraries that Google dealed with, its those books that have been tied up.

And also, Google has got control of a very large number of books, in a limited number of locations, allowing cheap bulk scanning.

The archive can never compete with that.

So, what is preventing us getting books off Google, and putting onto the Archive, Google is dealing with the libraries, and not the publishers?

Would be legal to go into those libraries and scan books there? I know Google built a scanner which can cope with books not opening flat, no trouble to copy it.

But, I recently came up with an idea, to do the same thing, it is very portable, the hardest part is some software, otherwise, the hardware is so simple, using some old disk drive hardware. I don't even need to use drawings to say how, if anybody is interested in trying the idea, say so, and I will post the idea in words.

It is based on a woodworking device I built, but which runs off cams rather than software, albeit the hardware for woodworking has to be heavy duty, while a scanner does not need such heaviness. Its nothing new, so not able to patent it, in any case, nobody would buy it, to built a copy is so easy, and the software would quickly have open source versions, by the time I get to built my example for my use.

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Poster: garthus Date: Jun 23, 2009 9:07am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

Time Traveler,

That is good to hear about the recycling. Here in New York (USA), they still waste quite a bit. You are right concerning google, however all of us can do our part by digitizing everything which we can get our hands on. I have a good sized collection of old service, maintenance, and technical manuals which I am currently putting up. Most all of this stuff was never copyrighted. I even pay some students to do scanning for me. We should all do what we can do since we really have little control over what google and their ilk are doing to convert the current inhabitants of this earth into a corporate enslavement society. It was good while it lasted and now we must make the best of a progressively corrupting system. You should post all of the materials concerning the scanning system up on the archive, for example one of mine:

Put it and anything else that you may have up. The only way for progress to take place is for others to have access to each of our ideas. They will be the seeds for even better ideas and thouhts.


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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 23, 2009 4:31pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change


I will do the scanner thing in the next few days, and hopefully somebody could attach some software, then I will have mine built ASAP. I got written permission to go into our local library, with a lap top and scanner, and scan recent (5-years) copies of our local newspaper, not as a whole, more I am creating a database, the newspaper does not keep back copies for its own use. I think soon I will have to post what I am doing, briefly, its about human rights in NZ, and my locality.

I don't have the link, but there is a small text archive on line in NZ, try searching for Victoria University and Edmonds Cook Book, one of our icons. "Sure to Rise" is another search term for the book, then there are a number of other books there. Sorry, I forgot I had Google Desktop0 search, try and let me know if it does not work outside NZ.

You will note I said nobody wants those old books, and they get pulped, as in turned into egg cartoons. Only the newer books being dropped off, are able to be sold, it destroys me that today's non-fiction, is mostly glossy pictures, for example, books on inventions, lots of photos on a double page, maybe 100 words. The books being destroyed, have full text descriptions with digrams, maybe one photo per invention, in the middle of the book.

Now think 200 years from now, which kind of book, would be most useful if a historian wants to find out how to create a working model of a clothes dryer.

What is the best way to find out how telephones work? Older books give lots of information, including about the old rotary stepping phone exchanges, that way you soon understand how a dialled number passes thou the phone exchange. Today's books, show a telephone, a computer like cabinet, then another telephone and a bit of wire.

One of the Archive items I was really pleased to get, was a home built television, using the old scanning disks, no CRT.

Here is two examples of books, I paid 10 cents for. (our standard postage stamp is 50 cents)

The Modern Marvels Encyclopaedia (Collins)500 pages, late '40s.

The Worlds Wonders. (British) about 1935.

In the last day, I have begun thinking about ways and means, maybe using old PCs and scanners, these books could be scanned by disabled people, there is government funding to provide such employment, I mean there was, with the recession, and the flu, NZ is cutting back on such funding, its cheaper to leave disabled people on minimum income support. (A living allowance funded by taxes collected by our government)But funding applications have to show why scanning old books is useful to NZ

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 23, 2009 5:35pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

Use this link

For the NZ text archive, I just checked it out again, its been vastly expanded since my last visit.

the time here is 12:30-pm GMT/UTC 12:30am. That is 12 hours difference.

The server is very slow, as it is the middle of the business/study day. Best to wait until after our 6-pm. also note NZ has only one fibre cable, The Southern Cross Cable leaving NZ in two directions, so our WWW access to the USA gets overloaded quickly, maybe our 10-pm until 6-am would be best for large downloads.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 24, 2009 4:34am
Forum: texts Subject: its even worse: Google Books Downloading Change

in regard to New Zealand Electronic Text Centre’s free online archive of New Zealand and Pacific Islands texts and heritage materials on

12 hours ago, at our midday, I posted the above link, I suggested waiting until end of our business day, because the pages were very slow to download, I especially found I could not even open the NZ History listing, i just tried aghain, just before our midnight, and the page still wont open.

Guess what.

Its trying to get something from

it took a long time, finally the page opened, on

Could somebody in the USA try, I wonder if the NZ History Books are actually on a Google Server outside NZ? and the redirect of URL is overloaded, if so, Google is making it hard for us (NZ) to access these books, I noticed recently lots of NZ history text on the Archive, where the PDF is on Google Books.

If its true, I will quickly raise a stink about it, one, these books are free for all, world wide, to share our culture, two, who okayed Google having them?

Our Maori, would be upset.

its a been a long day, I cleared a lot of my work, but then a new Human Rights type issue just began here, our government a few hours ago passed a new law, effective 1 Dec, I noticed a change on the original proposal by our last Government. That is news to people on my network. An unexpected amendment widening its scope is already planned, overriding expert advice our last Government had been given, and had used.

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Poster: garthus Date: Jun 24, 2009 2:35pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: its even worse: Google Books Downloading Change

Time Traveler,

I downloaded a cookbook from the NZ site. I will upload it to the Archive sometime tomorrow. Actually they have some great stuff on that site; I will try to upload more in the future. I am presently working on a digital front-end using Omeka to create digital collections which will be sub categories of the Archive. Presently I have this project going:

and would like to go completely over to Open Source applications. If you are worried about NZ collections, It would be a good idea to load all of their public domain stuff into the archive (as much as possible).


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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 24, 2009 9:33pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: its even worse: Google Books Downloading Change

I will check first what is happening, maybe if its on a Google server and it seems to be only the NZ History page that gives trouble maybe Google gives priority to the USA for downloads.

The problem is lack of time for me to move stuff to the Archive.

There was lots of NZ railway stuff there, I am spreading the word to the railway hobbyists. As for that new Maori law archive, I put that on a local network at 2-am here, by 10-am a number of people were downloading, we are just compensating Maori for the 1840 land grabs. A big argument is they want control of a strip of land all around the coast, some people think they will then block access to fishermen. They are getting control of the commercial sea fishery. We had a major hydro power scheme, a lot of water in one river, got turned around, to go into our biggest lake Taupo, then thru 8 power stations, Maori got the water rights back, and the water is back where it was. Less power but the scheme remains viable even without that water. But in this case they were justified, their river was dieing in the summers.

So there is lots of interest in those old texts I mention above.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jun 23, 2009 1:46am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: Google Books Downloading Change

in NZ by 2011, all our land fills (rubbish tips)have to be closed, everything gets recycled, including kitchen and garden waste, by composting, and/or worm farms.

Major city's at their rubbish tips, have drop off points for recycling. These recycling centres are staffed by disabled people. A lot of things get put back into the community, by a retail shop operated by the same people. 90 minutes north of me, at another city, there everything worthwhile is given to local charity shops. There, they have a warehouse of computer parts, stacks of HDD, motherboards, CD players, cables, RAM etc.

But locally, its a retail shop, lots and lots of books get donated, for-profit dealers are there everyday. But still lots of old books end up getting pulped.

Up to the sixty's, NZ had strict import controls, we could only buy British. Still lots of books ended up here from the USA too, they became treasures, and passed on to the next generation.

Nowadays, with PC TV DVD SKY PS2 etc, nobody appreciates old books any more. A lot of the books are non-fiction, old tech books, car manuals (Up to the '60s, we made cars last 30 years or so, a new car, if we got a import license, would cost 2 years of a average pay packet.)

It hurts me, I got a disabled friend working there, keeping me informed, all those old books are being lost, because nobody is interested in setting up for bulk scanning. And nobody feels the need to stack up the books until they can be scanned.